Links:

Book into my autumn programme Time for the things that matter starting 4th October 2022.

'Reclaim Time to Read' 2022 reading challenge:  https://www.helenbeedham.com/2022-reading-challenge

Helen's business book: The Future of Time: how 're-working' time can help you boost productivity, diversity and wellbeing

Ariel on Linked In

Ariel on Goodwin's website

Transcript:

Helen: My guest this week is Ariel White-Tsimikalis. Ariel is a corporate finance lawyer and a partner at the global law firm Goodwin, where she set up and leads the capital markets practice within the technology and life sciences group. She helps companies in those industries, banks and other financial institutions to list on the London Stock Exchange and to manage life as a listed company.

She's also a specialist in ESG, environmental social governance matters, and she strongly believes that by helping to create better corporate governance, we can achieve better outcomes for society. Ariel is one of only a handful of black female partners in London's top 20 law firms, and is the first black equity capital markets partner in the UK.She sits on the Governing Council of the Law Society and is a   committee member of their Women Lawyers division. Ariel is a passionate advocate and mentor for women and black lawyers and believes in creating a sustainable career and helping others to do the same. Welcome to The Business of Being Brilliant Ariel!

Ariel: Oh, thank you for having me. It's nice to be here.

Helen: It's great to have you. And when we previously chatted, that was late spring and you were fairly recently into your new role and busy recruiting colleagues. I imagine it's been a pretty busy summer and you've got a lot on your agenda this autumn?

Ariel: I do yes. It's definitely back into the full swing of things after the summer holidays, but no, really exciting time for me and building a whole new practice and steering that obviously during some interesting times more broadly for our country politically as well, but also economically but really trying to keep the eye on the ball and build for what is coming next. And that's what I'm trying to focus on.

Helen: Yeah. And we are just recording this on day one of Liz Truss' new leadership of the country. So we're all following the news avidly and wondering how that's going to pan out over the coming weeks and months. So you are in a really exciting role, obviously a very senior role and leading a big practice in the organization.

Can you tell us a little bit about how you got to do that? What led you to taking on this role?

Ariel:  Funny enough, if you told me that I'd be doing this even five years ago I really wouldn't even have believed that. My role has been very organic, I would say. And I've done different things along the way but all of them have layered in experience and insights and skill sets that actually have built me into being able to take on a role like this. And I feel like it was really made for me in a way. But I needed everything that came over the last 15, 16 years to be able to be ready to take on something like this. I think the key thing is that I've always given myself space to ask myself what I like to do and to find my passion within the law.

So when I trained and I was a bushy-eyed trainee, I thought because I had a very international background that I'd really like doing international arbitration and then I'd be much more of an advisory lawyer or like litigation, that side of things. But I loved my corporate seat as a trainee and really had to listen to myself and say, well, actually, that's the seat I really enjoyed. And it actually played to a lot of my other skill sets and my broader set of skills. So I ended up qualifying into something that I was convinced when I had started that I wasn't ever going to be interested in. And then once I qualified too I was actually more of a private M&A lawyer. I did that for a bit, I did investment funds particularly on the secondary side of things for quite a while. It was only really until I got on to capital markets that I really said, ooh, this I really, really like, but I was always just put my hand up and stepped into, when people ask for help on transactions, you know, I didn't shy away because I thought I didn't like something, I always gave something a chance and always saw opportunities and to do things that maybe others didn't want to do? And it turned out that ECM was probably one of those areas and I was able to develop a little bit of a niche in that practice. And I quite liked being that person who was able to do ECM and things like that.

So I think it's always just giving yourself .... You know, recognize that there are many different facets to law and I think it applies to other professions as well. So rather just say you don't like one aspect and then leave it altogether, that maybe just look at things from a different angle. And I certainly am grateful that I did that because I think that really helped me discover what it is I really liked within the law.

Helen: That's such good advice if you're thinking, oh, I'm not sure the particular role I'm doing right now is what I want to be doing for a lot longer. It doesn't have to be great big decisions, do I stay, do I move? But actually a really good reminder there to have conversations with people, notice those things that have interested you over recent months and that you might want to explore a bit more and such good advice to think about perhaps diversifying or taking a different direction within the same industry.

Ariel: Yeah. And I think just having that constant conversation with yourself, because I think sometimes we just throw ourselves head in or we do things because we think we need to, or that's what's expected of us. And you forget to ask yourself: do I really enjoy what I do? Until you really find that you don't enjoy it and it's almost too much, too late. So I've always had that constant internal dialogue with myself and was really quite honest when I thought, yeah, this is quite interesting but could I see myself doing this indefinitely? I always was thinking about the sustainability of my practice and me within the profession and was this something I could see myself doing as a partner? Is this something I could see myself building a practice and business around? Is this something that really taps into all of my skill sets and allows me to bring all of me to what I do? And I think just having that constant conversation - and that can change over your career as well.

So also being able and adept enough to pivot and, and recognize that well, the markets are going in this particular direction. I've recently moved because I see where the UK's going and trying to attract more growth capital to London. I'm really excited about that, I know we'll talk about that a little bit later but again, just looking ahead, horizon scanning, seeing where you can create that opportunity and then moving and leaning into that opportunity. Having that internal dialogue allows you to look forward in that way.

And even when I did that, it was always along the way, I layered things on to my practice and realized, okay, well, definitely capital markets was something I was really... I really liked working with later stage private companies on their journey to the public markets. I really liked holding their hands once they're listed and doing the ongoing listed company side of things. I really enjoy having impact that really blossomed into a practice around governance and ESG and saying, well, how can I take my corporate job and build impact into that and just layering on different sort of bits to it. So you morph things into what you want them to be. And you go down one route and you realize that's not quite what you would like to do, but I love the journey in a way, because it's really enabled me to get to a place where there's so many elements to my practice that I absolutely love.

And I can bring so much, I can harness so much about what's different about me or where I come from and I've really embraced the fact that I'm African American and Greek and in fact, after this podcast I'll be speaking to a Greek FinTech company about their journey through the life cycle and how we can help them with that. And just being able to add those angles to my practice that make it just fun.

Helen: Yeah, that's fascinating to hear and it sounds like your regular reflection and those questions you ask yourself have been really instrumental in bringing some insights to you and perhaps making you realize what areas you want to move away from or move towards. I'm really curious because you are absolutely right, you said a little bit earlier that it's very easy to just get caught up in the busyness of our work or perhaps - my words - the plan we might have in our mind and forget to think about other possibilities outside that. And I know a lot of people really struggle with just life being very full on, how do we take stock and pause and reflect a lot.

So can I ask a very practical question? Do you put reminders in your diary every now and again to say, right, I'm going to have a ' reflect and review' day or half hour or whatever, or is it just something that you've learned to do instinctively or do you wait for an opportune moment, something significant happened, to then take stock? How do you make that habit work so well?

Ariel: Probably a mix of all of the above, maybe. I'm probably a bit more intentional about it now. Only because I can see how time can run away and you can get sucked into the vortex of the job and now with a more senior role and I'm a mum as well. So a lot more plates I need to spin than maybe slightly earlier in my career where I felt it happened a bit more naturally and organically, but I think I've always just had a good relationship with myself and I've always just had that internal dialogue. And I think maybe it was because also I had to recognize at some point I wasn't listening to myself and that I was a square peg into a round hole and it wasn't chiming internally with me and I couldn't work out exactly why. And then that's where I realized, okay, well, I've really been focusing - and I think a lot of people do - you focus on the 'what', you choose the 'what' and it's sometimes based on what your parents thought you should be going off and doing, what society expects you to be doing at certain points in your career and in life and then you focus on the 'how'. How am I gonna get to the what? And along the way, you completely miss the opportunity and forget with the crucial starting point of why! Why are you doing this? Why is the 'what' what you want? And I think it was when I realized I hadn't really done that in the right sequence. Then I went back and said, okay, well, what is it that I really want to do? Why is this exciting for me? Or how could I do what I do in a way that answers my 'why'? And I think when I went back to looking at things like that, then it just became a more Instinctive, regular touchpoint that I just have along my career.

And now I'm so clear on all of that, then in a way it's so easy to feel 'okay well, I feel a bit misaligned. This doesn't feel like it kind of chimes with things' and you just become a bit more instinctive about it, I think, as you go along. But I do regularly do try to take time to just look at the bigger picture.

And I think that's also one of the struggles, I think, in being in a professional services job; that sometimes you can feel a bit like a cog in a big machine and sometimes you've got to take a step back and look at the machine and what your role is within that machine and whether you're happy with that, or you feel that you can do more, or do things in a different way.

Helen: Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting to hear thank you. I love that idea of tuning in regularly. And is there anything else that has particularly helped you to get on and enjoy your career?

Ariel: Yeah, you know, I just love what I do actually. I mean, it is challenging and there are days I do wonder, am I cut out for this or sometimes it does ask a lot of you. But I think having a clear connection to what you're doing and passion for what you're doing, I think, means that you can be closer to reaching your fullest potential.

And I think that gives me ... I find a lot of purpose in what I do. And I think one thing I personally struggled with was to have such a corporate job but then feel that I was really contributing to society. And so it was when I was able to find ways of bringing that into my practice and ESG was one of those ways I could do that; bringing diversity and inclusion into my practice as part of something that I help boards think about, for example in terms of their composition or actually how I can, as I'm building my team, be mindful of things like that for example, and give opportunities to rising stars that I see and support diverse candidates, or even just use my platform to speak to people like you and get messages out to be a role model that maybe I didn't visibly see so regularly in terms of the someone who maybe looks and talks like me. And that just makes it so much more fulfilling. And so when things are challenging or when you do feel the balance is tipping a little bit towards you're giving a bit too much, you really feel like, well, I don't want to give this up because I do still get quite a lot from it.

So I think that has been really key to the sustainability of me and the profession in a tough environment where you don't find a lot of women, for example, and certainly as you mentioned very few women or people of colour in my particular area of practice.

And I think also one thing I've had to learn as well and I think it plays a big role in terms of, again, that sustainability to use the ESG term, but there's also just my own resilience and recognizing that I need to pour into myself as well just as much as I need to pour into others. And that whole ... put your mask on first on the plane before you can help others wasn't a natural inclination. I was always like someone tells me jump, I say how high, and it didn't matter if I couldn't jump or I didn't have the right shoes or whatever!

So I think it was when I realized as well, that actually I can't help others as much as I can; I cannot be as good as a mother, wife or friend ; that I am more fulfilled and happy at work if I'm also fulfilled and happy within. And again, it goes back to that inner dialogue I think I've always had with myself. I might not quite always understood, but I've been attuned to listening to those messages and realize, well, actually what I do miss sometimes is just being alone. What I do miss is carving out some time for myself. And what I do realize is I need to work out regularly to feel good about my body and how the clothes fit on me and all that kind of stuff and that some of those things just have to become non-negotiables and whilst you think sometimes when the job becomes overwhelming or how you're going to juggle everything, giving up those things actually impacts your job. And I think making that connection between your mind, body and business was quite eye-opening for me.

So now I regularly take care of myself because I know that taking care of myself and spending time on myself and spending time on my own and doing things that I know recharges me and builds my resilience just means I'm more effective in all of the relationships and the multiple jobs that I do.

Helen: Thank you for sharing that. And I think that's so true. I think it is really hard, particularly if you are part of a family and have caring responsibilities as well outside of work. We can feel quite guilty sometimes for saying no, for saying I'm not going to spend X time with you this weekend or whatever, for finding that time to ourself, it can feel incredibly self-indulgent and it's almost like we're letting other people down by not being available for them. But actually without that time to ourselves to do whatever it is we want to do that recharges us, we are probably going to end up letting them down because we'll be less patient, a bit more grumpy, maybe suffer in other ways that might impact others. And obviously that analogy of putting your own oxygen mask on works really well. It's still quite difficult to do in practice though. Isn't it?

Ariel: Yeah. And I certainly don't get it right all the time. Definitely.

Helen: Yeah. And I guess you learn to spot the warning signs when you really are missing it and you really need to up that up your priority agenda quickly.

Ariel: I think so, because I think my natural inclination is to seed it, you know, to not do that. For example last weekend was a bit too packed in terms of some engagements I had said yes to, and got to the evening and you know, had more wine than I had wanted to! I had been on a detox the week before, and I'm like, Ariel, you just did a five day detox, what are you doing?! But then my son and I'd been away for a long weekend and he's like, well, you're always working and, and I just felt the balance was wrong and like everything, I hadn't got the balance right. But I think also you've got to be compassionate with yourself too and say, okay maybe I overextended myself; maybe I didn't get the time that I needed to, that I wanted to catch up on some work things or that I wanted to spend a bit more time for myself and ground myself and get ready for the week ahead and all that kind of stuff. And I recognize that. I recognize that actually, Ariel, you need to prioritize that, don't give it away so much, and recognize it's important. And sometimes those things just become non-negotiables and I think actually just recognizing that sometimes it's okay for those things that maybe you feel are self-indulgent or you maybe feel a bit guilty about, especially as a mom, I can certainly relate to that.  But actually they need to be non-negotiables. But I'm in a constant battle all the times.

Helen: But I think it is that constant process, constant adjustment. You might feel like you're in a smooth pattern and everything's running the right way, but it never lasts for long! Something shifts in that picture or you realize you've neglected something. And it's perfectly okay to be self indulgent and enjoy it if that means a big night out with friends that you haven't seen for a while or something, and slightly less healthy evening than you might normally have, sometimes that bit just feels like something you haven't been getting enough of.

And it is just that constant looking back, saying, okay, what am I missing? What am I getting? What do I need right now?

Ariel: Yeah And it just goes back to inner dialogue right? It's just having that regular check in with yourself and recognizing what ... I just have that sense sometimes that, that was a bit too much. I mean, I had a great time, but maybe I didn't need to do seven things that weekend I could have done four.

Helen: Yes. Lesson for next weekend! Yeah, exactly. And from what you see here, what do people also struggle with in their working lives or working environments today? What do you notice about that?

Ariel: I think it's probably two key things. I think certainly what we're seeing now, younger generations, they want to find more purpose in what they do. I think they want to feel like they're having a bit more impact and I guess what I would challenge people to think - because I confess, it was slightly of my mindset too before - but you write off the legal profession, for example, or the corporate aspect of it, maybe, because you don't think you can have impact in the way that you might if you went and worked at an NGO or something like that.  And I think that's where I would challenge people to say oh, ok. And the way I feel I've been able to do it is actually through being a corporate finance lawyer, I can actually have quite a bit of that impact for the people I advise and the teams I run and the community I operate in.

 And so I think it's being creative about and less dismissive I think about having things aren't always, as you expect. And actually you can build, you can create your own reality a little bit more than people recognize. And so I think people are struggling with that, and I think COVID obviously people had a lot more time to themselves at home , thinking about things. Which is good actually. I think that those are all really good conversations to be having with yourself. But I think certainly in our industry people feel disconnected to what they're doing. And in fact, it's something that I very much think about as I'm building a practice and building a team, how much time I try to spend with my members of my team, do they understand the strategy, they understand the bigger picture and they feel bought into what we're all trying to build? And I think that gives them a sense of of purpose and impact and connecting with why we're up at 11 o'clock at night looking at a term sheet. It is because it's part of this bigger thing that we're building, which is going to be pretty exciting.

So I think finding that connection and I think those of us who run teams and those of us who are in leadership positions need to be really mindful of that need of people to feel connected to what they're doing and that they're having impact through what they're doing. So we need to think about how we empower them, how we have those connect conversations and make sure that we are answering a little bit of that 'why' or helping people discover that 'why' and find it within our teams and within our professions. I think that's the challenge for those of us in leadership positions within financial services sectors.

And then secondly, I think people, and I'm maybe speaking a bit more to the female here is, is recognizing that  it's hard, it's really hard to be a working mum. I have a five year old, it's really hard to have young children when you're in a senior role. And then the intersectionality of having other characteristics of being a diverse individual in the field, compounds all of that, let's be honest. But recognizing that is the challenge and I think, again, those of us in leadership positions need to look out for those situations and help people. And I do try to do that as much as I can. I think that's one of the things that gives me so much fulfillment. And what I do is I actually tell people what not to do in terms of don't follow my example! Here's everything I did wrong! And what makes it feel better about all the times I fell and stumbled is that I can tell you about them and prevent someone else from doing the same, but take time to look after ourselves.

And I guess if there's anything from COVID and building our own internal resilience and making sure our bodies are strong and we're looking after ourselves and we don't have underlying health conditions and we are working sustainably in a way that means we can stay in the jobs and especially ones that we feel fulfilled in, and we can deal with challenges because our cup is filled and we're not running on empty.

Helen: That's great to hear. And I totally agree that we may never have it perfectly nailed, so we can be the perfect role model in terms of the way we work or the way we balance everything or the choices we've made or things we've tried. It does help other people to hear about the things we've really found difficult or where we felt that we've fallen down.  Because it just helps people connect. It gives people reassurance that this is part of life, part of work. We're all going to experience these difficulties and it's actually the more, we can talk about them the more we can help one another get over them and reflect on them and grow from them.

So I think those stories of where we have found it challenging or where it hasn't worked out for us or where we've had real doubts or real difficulties, I think when we're able to talk about them with others they can be incredibly powerful, not just to others coming up behind us in their careers, but just to build that sense of human connection in our teams and in our workplaces. So we are really valuing each other as human beings and not just the person with in the work suit and doing the day job next to us.

Ariel: A hundred percent..

Helen: Ariel, it's been wonderful talking to you and hearing about your career and your reflections and, and how you've managed your career progression over time and all the great bits of advice you've shared for others who'll be listening. If people want to get in touch, how can they connect with you after the podcast?

Ariel: Yeah, probably the easiest way is on LinkedIn or on the Goodwin Proctor website, you can find my email on my bio, feel free to drop me an email if there's any particular query that you want to have a chat about, but yeah, I'm on LinkedIn and that's the medium I use the most.

Helen: Brilliant thank you. Well, best wishes for growing your role and your practice and managing all the life stuff outside of that as well. Thank you so much for being a brilliant guest!

Ariel: Oh, well thank you for having me and good luck with your podcast and growing your audience too.